Automation Questions - Electric or Gas

[MotterFocker]

I've got a 3 tiered stand that I made just over a year ago that uses gravity to feed everything (keggles for HLT and BK, cooler with braid for MLT). I've got about 30batches on it and am really pleased with how much more efficient it has made me in my process, but I've gotten way more obsessed with the hobby than I was planning for when I built the stand. I'm in process of adding pumps and going to upgrade it to a HERMS system. I've got another 2 kegs that can can be converted and was thinking of really upgrading the system and trying to get some automation / temperature control.

I would like to add a nice control panel with controllers. The one on http://theelectricbrewery.com/ is bad ass. Right now I use 55,000 BTU jet burners with 20lb propane and a regulator. From reading some posts on the honeywell intermittent valves, I don't think my burners would work.

Going all electric isn't all that appealing due to adding 2 runs of 30A service to my garage and putting a GFI in there for each circuit. I could switch which element is on and just get by with 1 run, but I regularly do multiple batches at the same time and then I'd need a way to heat either the HLT or BK (i.e. mash in the next batch while boiling to cut down on the clean up time vs brew time).

I'm thinking of running 1 circuit to the Garage using 4 conductor wire so it could power the HLT and the control panel equipment, pumps, etc. I'd convert the HLT to electric, add a new keggle mash tun and get rid of my cooler since I'd be able to maintain temp and step mash. For the BK, is there a simple valve I could install with a pilot and use my current burner? Do the ASKO valves just require a constant 120V or 24V signal (i.e. could they be switched on) and then use some type of constant spark device to light the thing? Another pet peeve I have is to get down on the ground to light the burner all the time. I wouldn't be comfortable just using a bbq igniter, it would have to be one that you could hold down and get coninuous spark.

Anyway, I'm brainstorming right now to figure out which way I should go. I figured there are people here who have gone through similar progressions and could provide some insight. Thanks in advance for the help!

[Mylo]

I've got a 3 tiered stand that I made just over a year ago that uses gravity to feed everything (keggles for HLT and BK, cooler with braid for MLT). I've got about 30batches on it and am really pleased with how much more efficient it has made me in my process, but I've gotten way more obsessed with the hobby than I was planning for when I built the stand. I'm in process of adding pumps and going to upgrade it to a HERMS system. I've got another 2 kegs that can can be converted and was thinking of really upgrading the system and trying to get some automation / temperature control.

I would like to add a nice control panel with controllers. The one on http://theelectricbrewery.com/ is bad ass. Right now I use 55,000 BTU jet burners with 20lb propane and a regulator. From reading some posts on the honeywell intermittent valves, I don't think my burners would work.

Going all electric isn't all that appealing due to adding 2 runs of 30A service to my garage and putting a GFI in there for each circuit. I could switch which element is on and just get by with 1 run, but I regularly do multiple batches at the same time and then I'd need a way to heat either the HLT or BK (i.e. mash in the next batch while boiling to cut down on the clean up time vs brew time).

I'm thinking of running 1 circuit to the Garage using 4 conductor wire so it could power the HLT and the control panel equipment, pumps, etc. I'd convert the HLT to electric, add a new keggle mash tun and get rid of my cooler since I'd be able to maintain temp and step mash. For the BK, is there a simple valve I could install with a pilot and use my current burner? Do the ASKO valves just require a constant 120V or 24V signal (i.e. could they be switched on) and then use some type of constant spark device to light the thing? Another pet peeve I have is to get down on the ground to light the burner all the time. I wouldn't be comfortable just using a bbq igniter, it would have to be one that you could hold down and get coninuous spark.

Anyway, I'm brainstorming right now to figure out which way I should go. I figured there are people here who have gone through similar progressions and could provide some insight. Thanks in advance for the help!

Ok, a couple of things for you to consider... To decide whether to go gas or electric, you really just have to as yourself one thing. Do you ever want to go to a brewout. I take my rig on the road a couple of times a year, so that was easy. If you are a stationary brewer - there are lots of advantages to electric, and some drawbacks, as well. I think that electric is safer for automation. You can even put your HLT on a timer and have it come up to temp before you wake up. There are no bottles of propane to buy and lug around, and no danger of CO poisoning. Both setups require ventilation. Yes, you do need to make sure that you protect yourself with sufficient grounding and GFI circuits. Do it once... done...

Besides the non-mobility, the biggest problem I see with electric kettles is all the carmelization. All this is speculative. I don't have an electric kettle - but every picture I see of one has a burnt on layer of caramel. You can easily do a hybrid system (electric for HLT and RIMs) and do a conventional burner for the kettle. I'm with you on the lighting. It's a pain in the ass. I don't think an expensive intermittent pilot is necessary for the kettle. #1, you have to be using low pressure burners (wok) which aren't very adjustable, and #2, once it is ON, it stays on until you are done. You can find those electric (not mechanical) sparkers for your grill that take a small battery and produce a continuous spark the whole time the button is held. That's probably sufficient. You wouldn't want a standing pilot on the BK because #1) you'd have to manaully light it, and #2) the pilots do put out some heat - enough that you don't want to have an empty kettle on top of a pilot burner, and again #3) you don't turn it on an off once it is going. You need to power an ASCO valve the whole time you want it open. For convenience, I have my BK on an ASCO with a switch, and I manually light it with the piezo electric ignitor mentioned above.

Many people I know use PIDs or Rancos for their mash automation (like in theelectricbrewery.com), but I would urge you to consider something like the BrewTroller. It has a lot of functionality built in and can control almost everything or minimal pumps and burners, depending on how much tinkering you want to do. And, it's the same price as two PIDs anyway...


Mylo

[LordUlrich]

I have been asking my self some pretty similar questions lately.
If you are not conformable working with electricity DO NOT DO IT. I am also not an electrician, nor an expert (avid DIYer). And last ALWAYS check anything you read on the internet with someone who knows what they are doing, if you kill your self it is your own fault.

Also think about where you live (I am going electric so i can move inside for the winter, high of -1 today!!)

I First i am not sure why running 2 lines plus GFCI is a big deal. (If you are running a 120 circuit GFCI protection is easy using just an outlet, and cheaper although i don't know about 30 amps). DO NOT run 3+g (lots of people call this 4 wire) if you are running GFCI and 2 circuits this is ok if you use a sub panel (this is called a shared neutral and i don't believe it is code and as i understand it could cause issues with the GFCI, unless you have a distribution box)

The route i would go is, run a 240V service at something like 40-50 amps (need to calculate the actual requirements). I suspect a 50 amp breaker/service should be more than enough to run a 5500w element in each kettle, plus the controls and everything (in truth you don't need them running full hot all the time)
Put a GFCI in the main breaker box.
at the brew system put a sub box (probably a 6 slot, you can get them on sale for like $15) in the sub panel I would put a breaker for

• 15 A Single Pole Breaker for Pumps and controls (low draw equipment)
• 2 pole (240 volt) breaker for HLT (amps depends on element)
• 2 pole (240 volt) breaker for Boil Kettle (amps depends on element)

None of the breakers in the sub panel need to be GFCI breakers IF your main panel is GFCI (everything down stream is protected)

The best resource I have found for electric is over on Home Brew Talk, they have a forum on electric brewing.

[Zen_Brew]

Motterfocker:

I recently picked up an older B3 1550 system and am in process of converting to 240V electric for the HLT and BK. There are pluses and minuses to each.

As Mylo stated the biggest minus to electric might be lack of portability. You can combat this a bit by keeping an old turkey burner or two around and some propane tanks for if/when you want to brew mobile. I am also fashioning a 25ft 30 amp extension cord which may allow me to hook up to 240V connects off site. If not at least it will allow me to wheel my cart out of the garage on a nice sunny day

As to scorching, if you buy the low density, or ultra low density elements all the word on the street from users is carmelization is not an issue. I have not boiled with my stainless 4500W element yet so can not speak from experience, but a sufficient amount of senior brewers with electric systems seem to agree on this point. I also really like the fact that on a cold day I can leave my garage buttoned up with an electric system with no concern for CO2, and I won't have to run out every several weeks and get propane tanks filled up at darn near $4/gallon anymore.

For the controllers, building your own PID is probably the lowest cost option with excellent flexibility. For me however I just didn't have the time and patience to do all the wiring. There are several options out there for pre-made controllers depending on how automated you want to go and how much you want to spend. For electric systems here are some links to companies offering various controlling solutions I came across during recent research. I have no affiliation with any of them although I did purchase from one of them.

The first link is the most base low cost control system for something pre-made that I found. It is the option I went with to start with. It gives you basic controls, options to regulate the boil, and if you add a Johnson as I will, options to dial in set point temps for the HLT. http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productc ... y-c269.htm

Next up is a company that builds several control systems from basic control right up to near full automation. They have a full spectrum of pre-built options including the elements, float cut off controls and all mounting hardware. They will also custom configure to your specifications. http://www.brewmation.com/

Last if you don't mind doing some of the wiring the BCS-460 system is quite the rage right now. It allows you to set up a basic system with the ability to continuosly expand and add automation options. It has a large user base and appears to have good documentation and support. At this time I think you need to configure an external computer to control the system.
http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/

There is lots of information out on the web as well, and the electric brewery site you referenced is among the best. Good luck. Cheers

[dunleav1]

Why not have both?

I am in the process of moving from RIMS to HERMS.
I have a propane brutus 10 clone I built but didn't do the automation or ASCO valves, just plain propane burners.
I'm adding a SS coil to my HLT. I am guessing that after I get the HERMS setup and running the next step will be moving the HLT heating to electric.
And then I can use automation for the mash schedule and hlt heating.

I can't see me moving the boil kettle to electric.

My plan is to keep the burners under my hlt and mash so I can mobile brew if I want to. I'll just be manual instead of automated.

[MotterFocker]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm fairly comfortable doing home wiring, new to PID's and controllers. The main concern I have with putting in 50amp+ service in the garage is I would have to go with larger wire than 10ga, which gets pretty pricey when my main box is over 50' away. Plus I'm not sure I could "legally" add a new service panel without having it done professionally or at least getting a permit. I don't think those 5500W elements could get away with anything less than 30A each. GFI breakers of amperage >20 are very pricey as well so it's almost a wash by the time you figure gas or electric (in my situation). If I go with just 1 circuit and 30A rating, there is a 17' cord with built in GFI protection for less than $100 shipped on ebay, which would allow me to move the stand around in the garage or plug it into a friends place if they had 240V service.

It gets pretty cold here too and I got a heater for my garage this year, which has allowed me to brew all winter. I like the concept of just adding a valve to turn on the gas to the boil kettle and use a constant spark device. What is the best valve to go with, I use the typical turkey fryer burner, rated at 58,000BTU and a regulator that goes to at least 10psi-15psi. Along with that, what controller would best suit it? Do I need SSR?

I took a look at the brewtroller and it looks neat. I don't know that I'm up to the level on trying to hook up all of that. I'm not a real techy/computer savy guy. My main goal now is to have some sort of control panel, be able to control the HLT temp, read vessel temps, and then turn pumps on/off with switches, just to give my stand more of a coolness factor since it's all me now. Being able to turn on my gas and automatically light my BK burner would be great too.

As for the HLT, i'm still not sure what to do. I'm going to have gas for the BK (right now at least) so that forces me to keep the door open anyway. For those of you who use gas on the HLT, do you see much overshoot with burners and PID's? Any preference on the LP burner (i.e. hurricane or wild looking jet ones)

Here's a link to a pic of my current stand, I'll probably try to modify it. Not exactly sure how to post pics on here.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5152112&l=ca07ba991f&id=674588607

Thanks again for all of the help

Dave

[Mylo]

Dave, I have a gas fired HLT. Originally I had plumbed in a Honeywell Intermittent Pilot gas valve with the intention of using a Ranco or Love control. The Honeywell valves operate at low pressure (11 psi?), so I went with a 90KBTU wok burner with a low pressure regulator from B3 right upstream from it. Supply it with 24VAC and it automatically lit the pilot, sensed it, then opened the main. I have since swapped it out for a standing pilot because the high voltage spark sent out a lot of EMI that messed with the sensitive BrewTroller electronics (they have since remediated the sensitivity to EMI). I use the BT outputs in "on/off" mode, meaning no PID logic. 10-15 gallons of water has a lot of thermal mass, and I never overshoot my set points. Rancos, Johnsons, and Auber PIDs all have 10 amp relays built in. So if you use ASCOs or Honeywell valves, you won't need a separate SSR. One thing to keep in mind is that if you do use a PID, then you should try to get one with a configurable minimum cycle time, as cycling automated gas valves faster than 1 second or so could produce unexpected results.

My BK burner is the 60K banjo burner style and it operates off of a 0-30 psi adjustable regulator.


Mylo

[foomench]

Like Zen_Brew, my electric brewery is still a work in progress, so take whatever else I have to say with a grain of salt.

As for my work in progress, right now I have a stand that uses electricity for the HLT (1000W), and I sit my BK on a turkey fryer. I'm in the process of hooking up a PID for a new HLT (1500W element). Both new and old HLTs use 120V power. I've made a new BK to run off of 240V power, 30A with a 5500W heating element.

Now as for this one or the other and portability argument, I've also bought another turkey fryer that I'm going to cut up and make into a clamp-on accessory for my stand. The idea is if I want to use 240V electricity in my basement, I can. And if I want to take the show on the road, I clamp on the gas burner. Oh, and I have two different boil kettles for this, but you could probably get away with one depending on the heating element mount.

I don't know how easy it will be to do multi-batch brewing with this since the HLT is only 120V. My plan for single brews is to fire up both the HLT and BK with water first thing to get brewing quickly. 1500W will maintain and increase the HLT temp slowly, but it would take a good while to go from cold tap water to 170 degrees with that. (If my calculations are correct, a little over two hours for 12 gallons.)