Anyone see this?

[gfoster]

Oh, I agree 100% that it's been handled incorrectly and blown way out of proportion. I've gone on record to a few people stating that I hope the guy who started this whole thing on judgenet got called on the carpet as well.

I don't like the way this whole sad ugly issue has been handled and I'd imagine there's going to be a few people at the NHC convention that are going to go home minus a tooth or two.

-- Gary F.

[jamilz]

The whole thing seems pretty silly to me. It is also very flattering to think that what I do actually makes such a huge difference to some folks that they get all worked up over it. That is really weird.

I was required to enter my beers in another region. It is odd to blame me for following the rules. (As a side note, I get hate mail every year of the NHC, no matter which region I enter.) I'm comfortable with any change in the rules that the NHC wants to implement as they apply to everyone, but asking me not to enter or not to list my club is just foolish.

I am going to keep brewing. It is my passion and I'm not stopping for anyone. If I brew, I'm going to enter the beers in the hardest and best judged competitions around. I've said it over and over: The only way you're going to get honest feedback to improve your beer is to enter it in competition. If you take that away from me, I lose my best tool.

I also think it is quite pathetic that a BJCP judge would think the only reason for entering a competition is winning. The big value is the feedback, which I use to improve my beers.

And there is no way I'm going to not list my club. That would be like giving up your family and it is something that just isn't in my nature. I'm proud of those folks and I'll not shy away to keep someone else happy.

It would be great if they could figure out a system that made everyone happy. Unfortunately, that is impossible. In any competition no matter how fair, there are always going to be some people that lose. Of those people, some are always going to blame the winners instead of doing what they should do, which is learn from the experience and improve their beer. I think this is just a basic fact of life.

[BrewBum]

I agree with you Jamil and I posted a reply that will probably show up today, if their server doesn't crash from all the replies that Kevin got.

I basically said that clubs aren't region specific so i could be a member of Quaff and enter in the midwest and in fact quaff won in 3 regions at least anyway.

If club of the year is the big concern for some people maybe they should have a small and big club comp. The only problem with this is there are no real rules and regs for setting up and maintaining a club, which I love.

I don't know, I have entered my first comps this year and did it for the feedback and the feedback alone. I have been lucky enough to place in a couple, but the feedback is what I am impatiently waiting for.

I think Kevin's personal innuendos toward Jamil were uncalled for and childish and screamed jealously. Hey, what does he know though, he doesn't listen to the show.

Get him on the show so we can lambast him on the air!! You have upset the Vatican (aka TBN) Kevin, time to receive your punishment.

[gfoster]

Jamil I am totally behind the fact that you can and should enter your beers. I hate a contest where someone "lets" me win... it doesn't mean anything. If you can beat the "best of the best" that's what really matters. I generally respond to tougher competition by stepping it up a notch, myself, and it's no fun competing against someone that's not giving it their best effort.

I also think that there *is* an element of competition to it, not just feedback. Sure, I enter to get good feedback but it also feels *really* good when I win. I imagine it'd feel even BETTER if I were to win at your expense (big evil grin) because if I can beat you, that's an accomplishment to be proud of. So I don't think feedback is the only motivator. I know for a fact I'm a hell of a lot prouder of winning as the contests get tougher, no matter what my feedback sheets say.

That being said, I'll go way out on a limb right here and state that yes, I agree that the fact that you have to enter into another region is fair and it's silly to get pissed off about it. It's a pretty good rule. HOWEVER, this whole thing would've been a whole lot less of an explosion and a whole lot less of an issue if the region you picked to enter would've been the southwest region instead of the great lakes region.

I'm sure you still would've gotten hate mail from people that are petty and mean spirited, but then it would've taken the whole "club of the year" argument out of the picture and nobody would have had a leg to stand on when it came to bitching about *that* particular part of the situation. Sure they would've continued to bitch about the fact that they can't beat *you* but hey, them's the breaks... learn to brew better until you can (at least that's how I feel).

Now I know... I know... you're free to enter anywhere you choose. I'm not arguing that. I'm also not ever going to argue that you shouldn't enter under your QUAFF affiliation or any other affiliation you want. That'd be stupid, and if someone told me I couldn't enter under my DOZE tag I'd be pretty pissed (and rightly so). Hell, for what it's worth you could probably start your own one man homebrewing club, enter under it and still have a shot at club of the year (wouldn't that just piss everyone off lol). I'm just saying that most of this hullabaloo would have lost a lot of it's teeth from the outset if your entries showed up in southwest alongside the rest of QUAFF since you coordinated in West. A lot of people who've bent my ear privately about this situation have completely forgotten (or didn't realize) that california got split into two regions this year (west and southwest).

That being said, I'm still going to go ahead and send my three beers off to Florida as a representative of the absolute best effort that I know how to make. If you beat me, I'll just come back next year and try harder. You're my measuring stick, for good or bad, and it encourages me and drives me to learn more, brew better and continue to strive for that elusive excellence. That's never a bad thing and I'd like to think that were I in your shoes I'd be proud of the fact that you inspire and drive other brewers to hone their craft and take it to the next level.

-- Gary F.

[jamilz]

I also think that there *is* an element of competition to it, not just feedback. Sure, I enter to get good feedback but it also feels *really* good when I win.

Absolutely. It is always nice to win.

That being said, I'll go way out on a limb right here and state that yes, I agree that the fact that you have to enter into another region is fair and it's silly to get pissed off about it. It's a pretty good rule. HOWEVER, this whole thing would've been a whole lot less of an explosion and a whole lot less of an issue if the region you picked to enter would've been the southwest region instead of the great lakes region.

Now I know... I know... you're free to enter anywhere you choose.

No, I'm not allowed to enter anywhere I choose. Here is how it works. The organizer needs to contact the region organizer ahead of time and ask for permission to enter. Once permission is granted by the organizer for that region, we have to contact the AHA also and check with them if it is OK. (Some folks contact the AHA first, organizer second, but then as an organizer you feel like you must say yes if the AHA ok'd it.)

I checked with the Southwest first and they were concerned that they were going to have another 750 entry year and that they'd be overwhelmed. I checked with Northwest second and they very kindly agreed, but this was the organizer's first year and I didn't want to overwhelm him his first year with yet another twist to handle. I thought about the South region, but didn't bother checking with them as they are the NHC region this year, so I knew they'd have too many entries to deal with already (it isn't fair to overload a region with 600 + beers). Next I checked the Great Lakes. They were fine with it and they had plenty of experience, so it wasn't a hassle for them. That is how I ended up in Great Lakes. Anybody that thinks the process or motivation was different is mistaken.

I'd be happy to send my entries anywhere. It sucks having to box them up and ship them when everyone around me just gets to drop them off. However, once they're in the box, it is no big deal to send them to any of the regions. Shipping is shipping.

[gfoster]

See? That's exactly why I think the temper tantrums on the various mailing lists (judgenet et al) are stupid and an indication of things being handled poorly. There's always more information than anyone has at first glance and the only way you get that info is to have a calm and reasonable discussion.

Thus my original admonishment to "dig deeper" and to ask people what the real issues are. I think the whole situation is regrettable, and I'd just about rather watch some drunk redneck with no shirt beat up his wife on "Cops" instead of seeing the petty vindictiveness that's been flying around over this.

-- Gary F.

[jamilz]

I'm with you brother.

[seanhagerty]

I agree with all,that Jamil has every right to enter and win, if his beer is the best, and just so long as the POPE doesnt use any divine intervention.

Sean