need help with my imperial Red recipe

[JasonG]

All,

I could really use some help with my imperial red recipe, and some general brewing help. I have a fair amount of brewing experience, 56 batches, mostly all grain. After a 2 year hiatus from brewing related to a new job and move, I just returned to the hobby recently. I have been listening to the BN for a long time, and I really feel like I have a good understanding of brewing science. However, this imperial red I brewed did not really turn out like I had hoped. I really spent a lot of time working on the recipe, and I am really frustrated that it didn't turn out well.

I am trying to make a beer akin to Alesmith's Evil Dead Red or Jamil's Evil Twin. Something deep red in color, with a really powerful hop aroma (like an IPA in aroma) balanced with a firm maltiness, toasty/biscuity notes, bit of roastyness. I want this to have a balancing bitterness but to be a bit on the sweeter side than some commercial examples.

Here is my recipe:
Grains:
4 gal batch
7# marris otter
14 oz munich (Breiss 10L)
12 oz Victory malt
6 oz Fawcett's pale chocolate (200L)
6 oz Crystal 40
4oz crystal 120

Hops:
3oz Amarillo (9.3 AA) for 10 min whirlpool
3oz Centennial (9.7 AA) for 10 min whirlpool

Yeast:
Wyeast 1450 Denny's Fav 50

My water:
Calcium 123 / Alkalinity as CaCO3 181 / Mg 14 / sodium 30 / pH 7.6

I use a cooler mash tun with a SS braid. Mashed with 3.25 gal at 150 F x 60 min. I think I listened too much to Palmers RA spreadsheet and not enough to AJ about water stuff. So, I tried to correct my water by adding 2 gm of sodium bicarb and 1 gm of calcium chloride, because I thought my RA was not high enough. However, I tested by mash pH with a strip and it was 5.4 - a bit high. I batch sparge with 5.75 gal. I added 1.5 mL of lactic acid to acidify the sparge so as to keep the pH down. I boiled x 120 min. No boil hops, all 6 oz in a 10 min whirlpool after flameout. Cooled to 65 F. Pitched 1/3 gal starter. Held fermentation at 65 F x 3 days, slowly brought up to 72 F over 2 days, then held there x 3 days. I then cooled to 35 F x 8 days, and racked to keg and carbed to 2.3 vol CO2.

OG 1.068 / FG 1.016 / SRM 19 / 6.9 % ABV

So, the final beer is dead on in terms of color. Unfortunately, there are a few problems:

1. There is a faint over-sweet candy caramel note that has a touch of cherry. I think that this might be the crystal malts, but I'm not sure. I think that I'm beginning to be over sensitive to crystal malts, but I'm not sure. Any other thoughts for what might be causing this flavor?

2. There is a metallic bitterness that comes late in the finish that is really difficult to deal with. It is still present in my mouth quite a while after I finish. I'm not sure what this is or how to correct it. I am worried that it has to do with the huge amounts of late hopping that I did. Perhaps I over did the whirlpool hopping thing. Any thoughts? I don't think it is the NaHCO3, as I tried mixing this in plain water and the taste to me was just salty, not metallic.

3. There is a totally surprising lack of hop aroma in this beer. 6 oz of hops at flameout and 10 min whirlpool for a 4 gal beer, and little to no hop aroma. How can this be? In retrospect, I don't think any of my hoppy beers really have a great hop aroma (ie Union Jack, Pliney, etc). I can't figure out why this might be.

Sorry for the extensive post. I am frustrated because I really put a lot of thought into this beer, and am disappointed in how it turned out. Any suggestions would be really appreciated. Thanks

JG

[thatguy314]

All,

I could really use some help with my imperial red recipe, and some general brewing help. I have a fair amount of brewing experience, 56 batches, mostly all grain. After a 2 year hiatus from brewing related to a new job and move, I just returned to the hobby recently. I have been listening to the BN for a long time, and I really feel like I have a good understanding of brewing science. However, this imperial red I brewed did not really turn out like I had hoped. I really spent a lot of time working on the recipe, and I am really frustrated that it didn't turn out well.

I am trying to make a beer akin to Alesmith's Evil Dead Red or Jamil's Evil Twin. Something deep red in color, with a really powerful hop aroma (like an IPA in aroma) balanced with a firm maltiness, toasty/biscuity notes, bit of roastyness. I want this to have a balancing bitterness but to be a bit on the sweeter side than some commercial examples.

Here is my recipe:
Grains:
4 gal batch
7# marris otter
14 oz munich (Breiss 10L)
12 oz Victory malt
6 oz Fawcett's pale chocolate (200L)
6 oz Crystal 40
4oz crystal 120

Hops:
3oz Amarillo (9.3 AA) for 10 min whirlpool
3oz Centennial (9.7 AA) for 10 min whirlpool

Yeast:
Wyeast 1450 Denny's Fav 50

My water:
Calcium 123 / Alkalinity as CaCO3 181 / Mg 14 / sodium 30 / pH 7.6

I use a cooler mash tun with a SS braid. Mashed with 3.25 gal at 150 F x 60 min. I think I listened too much to Palmers RA spreadsheet and not enough to AJ about water stuff. So, I tried to correct my water by adding 2 gm of sodium bicarb and 1 gm of calcium chloride, because I thought my RA was not high enough. However, I tested by mash pH with a strip and it was 5.4 - a bit high. I batch sparge with 5.75 gal. I added 1.5 mL of lactic acid to acidify the sparge so as to keep the pH down. I boiled x 120 min. No boil hops, all 6 oz in a 10 min whirlpool after flameout. Cooled to 65 F. Pitched 1/3 gal starter. Held fermentation at 65 F x 3 days, slowly brought up to 72 F over 2 days, then held there x 3 days. I then cooled to 35 F x 8 days, and racked to keg and carbed to 2.3 vol CO2.

OG 1.068 / FG 1.016 / SRM 19 / 6.9 % ABV

So, the final beer is dead on in terms of color. Unfortunately, there are a few problems:

1. There is a faint over-sweet candy caramel note that has a touch of cherry. I think that this might be the crystal malts, but I'm not sure. I think that I'm beginning to be over sensitive to crystal malts, but I'm not sure. Any other thoughts for what might be causing this flavor?

2. There is a metallic bitterness that comes late in the finish that is really difficult to deal with. It is still present in my mouth quite a while after I finish. I'm not sure what this is or how to correct it. I am worried that it has to do with the huge amounts of late hopping that I did. Perhaps I over did the whirlpool hopping thing. Any thoughts? I don't think it is the NaHCO3, as I tried mixing this in plain water and the taste to me was just salty, not metallic.

3. There is a totally surprising lack of hop aroma in this beer. 6 oz of hops at flameout and 10 min whirlpool for a 4 gal beer, and little to no hop aroma. How can this be? In retrospect, I don't think any of my hoppy beers really have a great hop aroma (ie Union Jack, Pliney, etc). I can't figure out why this might be.

Sorry for the extensive post. I am frustrated because I really put a lot of thought into this beer, and am disappointed in how it turned out. Any suggestions would be really appreciated. Thanks

JG

I can't speak to that yeast having never used it, but I find yeast choice can greatly influence hop expression. Also, I tend to find that late-hopped beers show the aroma after a little bit of conditioning, where as dry-hopped beers show it right away. 1056 gives me a strong hop aroma whenever I use it, but some of the other strains I use can mute the character.

Leaf hops or pellet hops?

Is there a reason you're doing a hot whirlpool instead of chilling right away?

Were the hops strongly aromatic when you used them?

Is there a reason why you dont' want to try dry-hopping to get some of that aroma?

[spiderwrangler]

It is still present in my mouth quite a while after I finish.

We've all be there brother....

[JasonG]

I can't speak to that yeast having never used it, but I find yeast choice can greatly influence hop expression. Also, I tend to find that late-hopped beers show the aroma after a little bit of conditioning, where as dry-hopped beers show it right away. 1056 gives me a strong hop aroma whenever I use it, but some of the other strains I use can mute the character.

I used this because Denny Conn has talked a lot about this strain on other boards, uses it exclusively in his Rye IPA amoungst other beers. He feels that it accentuates the malt characteristics of a beer without really surpressing the hop character (I'm paraphrasing from memory). I certaintly could use the old stand by of 1056. I am curious about using WLP 007 after hearing a lot about in on CYBI. It seems like it could work well in this type of beer.

Leaf hops or pellet hops?

Sorry, forgot to mention all pellet hops

Is there a reason you're doing a hot whirlpool instead of chilling right away?

I've heard so much about whirlpool hopping, especially in the Firestone Walker CYBI episodes (Union Jack in particular), and it seems to be something that Tasty in particular really enjoys. I really wanted a beer that has a ton of hop aroma without a huge bitterness component.

Were the hops strongly aromatic when you used them?

They were purchased from my LHBS within a week of use. They were all in O2 barrier bags, kept in a chest freezer at the shop and kept in my freezer until use. Admittedly they lacked some of the punch I would have liked when I opened the bags. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that they were from last year's harvest since the AA is the same as those I bought in the spring.

Is there a reason why you dont' want to try dry-hopping to get some of that aroma?

I am still thinking about dry hopping this. I did not initially because I do want some of the maltyness to shine through in the aroma as well and was worried that with this much late hops, dry hopping it might overwhelm things. However, it does not seem to be the case currently, and since I kegged it I can still dry hop if I want.

Also, the hopping issues doesn't address the candy caramel sweet notes nor the metallic notes. If the metallic note is from hops, I'm worried that dry hopping it might increase this.

JG

[thatguy314]

http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/b ... llic-Notes Denny's found it in his own beers, might be a mix of hops and his yeast

I've found that WLP007 does not accentuate american-style hops as much as 1056. I've had to dry hop to get a really strong flavor out of it.

However, like I said, IME, I get a stronger hop flavor from late-hopped beers after a little conditioning, than I do right away and fresh.

[brewinhard]

The candy caramel sweetness you are getting could be due to your only late addition whirlpool hops not providing enough bitterness to match the crystal malts (although sparingly) used in your recipe. Maybe you should try rebrewing this one with typical hop additions and dry hopping first, before delving into the world of whirlpool hopping. You might get a bit closer to what you want, then you can adjust in future brews. Just my 2 cents.

[thatguy314]

The candy caramel sweetness you are getting could be due to your only late addition whirlpool hops not providing enough bitterness to match the crystal malts (although sparingly) used in your recipe. Maybe you should try rebrewing this one with typical hop additions and dry hopping first, before delving into the world of whirlpool hopping. You might get a bit closer to what you want, then you can adjust in future brews. Just my 2 cents.

Oops. I ment to say something along those lines as well.

Whirlpool hops won't develop much flavor. I'd expect a 10 minute whirlpool to give you less bitterness than a 10 minute boil. How much bitterness you go would be an interesting question

My calculator (tinseth) says 87IBUs for a 10 minute boil addition (exceedingly bitter), 47 IBUs for a 5 minute boil addition (should still be quite firmly bitter, much like a pale ale), and 10 IBUs for a 1 minute addition

That's different than Rager which goes from 50IBUs at 1 minute to 63 at 10 minutes.... though IIRC Tinseth said Rager and Gareth were highly innacurate at the early time points... so who knows...

Anyways. Do you detect the bitterness? How intense would you say it is.

[JasonG]

Oops. I ment to say something along those lines as well.

Whirlpool hops won't develop much flavor. I'd expect a 10 minute whirlpool to give you less bitterness than a 10 minute boil. How much bitterness you go would be an interesting question

My calculator (tinseth) says 87IBUs for a 10 minute boil addition (exceedingly bitter), 47 IBUs for a 5 minute boil addition (should still be quite firmly bitter, much like a pale ale), and 10 IBUs for a 1 minute addition

That's different than Rager which goes from 50IBUs at 1 minute to 63 at 10 minutes.... though IIRC Tinseth said Rager and Gareth were highly innacurate at the early time points... so who knows...

Anyways. Do you detect the bitterness? How intense would you say it is.

This candy sweet note is more in the aroma than the flavor - it is not really a sweet or cloying beer. There is some bitterness, although I am not very good at estimating total IBUs (maybe 30-40 ish??). I was partly interested to see how much bitterness I would get from an all whirlpool hopped beer, and there is definitely a fair amount there. However, I am starting to think that maybe this metallic note I've picked up may be secondary to this large amount of late hops, although I guess the yeast might be playing a role as well.

I am considering re-brewing this and ditching the crystal malts entirely - especially after hearing Vinnie mention the last time he was on the session about his feeling that crystal malts clash with american hops. Maybe I will try the hopping schedule suggested in Jamil's Evil Twin recipe and dry hop it as well. I really had high hopes for this, and I'm going to do my best to brew the beer I am looking for.

JG