Good Saison Recipe Needed

[Hoser]

A thinner mash helps promote a more fermentable wort.

Says who?

According to Kai Troester this is not true.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... on_mashing

I would focus more on low mash temps, appropriate pH, adding simple sugars if needed, appropriate pitching rates, and fermentation temps.

[Ozwald]

It is true... to an extent. But lowering your mash temp a half a degree would still have more impact. Palmer & Jamil like to bring that up every once in a while I've noticed.

As for mash thickness, I believe in consistency. There's the set ratio method which I use - I just stick with a 1.4 for everything. Or the Tasty method, where the strike water volume is always the same. It's more about repeatability & knowing your system than using the thickness to try to accomplish something. Pretty much any parameter you are trying to change with a thickness adjustment can be done in another way.

I do like the Tasty method a lot, especially if you're building your water from RO, but on my HERMS system using the same ratio gives me much more benefit with recirc & ramp stability. I forgot why I did that until a few batches ago when I forgot to adjust it on a recipe & ended up with a 2.1. It worked, but it was a pain in the ass getting my HERMS to behave - not because of the actual thickness, but from the variation. If I went to a 2.1 for every batch, I'd be able to dial it in after a few tries.

If I was aiming for something bone dry, pre-HERMS I'd just go for a lower single infusion temp, with HERMS, it's just too simple to do step mashes.

[spiderwrangler]

A thinner mash helps promote a more fermentable wort.

Says who?

According to Kai Troester this is not true.

I like the providing sources, not enough opinions on this thread are voiced with support to back them up... however, make sure it says what you think it says....

Thinner mashes enhance the maltose production and therefore increase the fermentability.

[Ozwald]

I like the providing sources, not enough opinions on this thread are voiced with support to back them up

I'll provide my source then... just for you

My starters are done all-grain from my 3 gallon mashtun. When I was really geeking out with yeast experiments I was doing side-by-side tests every single day for several months. The 3g mashtun can handle 1 & 2 gallon starters very easily & it was a little tricky to pull a 3g starter out of it without going thicker than I typically like on a regular brew day. That got me thinking & I started playing around with mash thickness to see if building a 2nd mashtun would be worth it (ie doing 2 small, thinner mashes vs 1 larger one). Using my terminal hydrometer - regular size, but the scale only goes from 0.980 to 1.020 with large spaces between markings which makes it easy to see a difference of 0.0005 SG. I found very slight but consistent differences, but the conclusion was that it didn't really matter that much & it certainly wasn't a parameter that I was going to adjust to alter the result. As I mentioned above, even a half degree temperature difference had a larger impact on overall fermentability. Flavor-wise... hard to say since these were un-hopped starter worts made from 100% Great Western 2-row & you can't exactly calibrate your palette to a scientifically accurate scale. I thought I noticed some differences, but if someone were tasting with me, I could have easily been swayed that it could have been perception or imagined, knowing they were different. And a blind triangle doesn't really work solo. Either way, even if there were actual flavor differences it would've been the same level of nitpicking that you hear discussed on CYBI.

[neckbeardbeer]

As for mash thickness, I believe in consistency. There's the set ratio method which I use - I just stick with a 1.4 for everything. Or the Tasty method, where the strike water volume is always the same. It's more about repeatability & knowing your system than using the thickness to try to accomplish something. Pretty much any parameter you are trying to change with a thickness adjustment can be done in another way.

You recall which cybi episode Tasty talked about that? I remember it being a really good discussion of the mash.

[Ozwald]

As for mash thickness, I believe in consistency. There's the set ratio method which I use - I just stick with a 1.4 for everything. Or the Tasty method, where the strike water volume is always the same. It's more about repeatability & knowing your system than using the thickness to try to accomplish something. Pretty much any parameter you are trying to change with a thickness adjustment can be done in another way.

You recall which cybi episode Tasty talked about that? I remember it being a really good discussion of the mash.

If it was on CYBI it was one of the last episodes. I think he's discussed it on the Session as well. I would only suggest that route if one was starting from R.O. to keep the salt additions consistent, which is what he does. Even then, I wouldn't do it personally. I don't mind plugging a couple numbers into ProMash - my head works in math & numbers anyways. I've been HERMS/RIMS brewing for quite a long time & find that the system runs more consistently with a set thickness. Not that either way is any better than the other, it just depends on your personal brewing style; you can achieve consistent repeatability with either.

[NHbeerscene]

I know tis is not in the same vein as the current conversation but as for a recipe I made this one just recently and the hydrometer samples have tasted great

Fat Guy Smash Saison

12# Boheimin Pilsner

0.5 oz Citra 14.5% @ 60 min
0.5 oz Citra 14.5% @ 10 min
1.0 oz Citra 14.5% @ Flame Out


Wyeast 3711 French Saison Yeast

Mash @ 151 for 60 min
90 min boil ferment started at 66 deg F free rising to 72 deg F
(measured on the side of the fermentor)

So far the samples have really tasted citrusy. I think the next iteration I will add some oatmeal to the batch. they mentioned this on the session during the Trinity Brewing (7-17-11) show. Hope this helps.