Black IPA vs Janet's Brown Ale

[Chupa LaHomebrew]

Similarly I think one could similarly do a good black IPA by using more english style earthy / floral hops. I tend to prefer these hops more in roasty beers to begin with. EKG, Fuggle, Nugget, maybe northern brewer? Janet's brown blends the northern brewer and the roasted malt very well IMO. So do many other beers. They don't have to clash if you choose the right hops.

I agree. Citrus hops don't work well with the roast of Black IPA nor the phenolics of a Belgian yeast. And that's really my problem with both these styles. Is that really as creative as we can be? Adding Carafa Special or Belgian yeast and using the same hops you normally use in the house IPA and calling that a new style? Do homebrewers have to all the fucking work! Just kidding there.

I brewed a Black IPA on Sunday with Northern Brewer hops. If I don't like that one, then I'm giving up completely.

BTW, that Bells 10000 is like 9.5% or more. That's way bigger than an IPA. Regular or fucked up with Carafa.

Tasty

I think the bigger bitterness or hoppyness can clash with yeast phenols, or dark roasty malts, but they don't necessarily have to, and if you have tried enough commercial examples, you almost have to have tried great examples of both Black IPA's and Belgian IPA's. (Also, I would think that it is more the actual IBU level of a beer that clashes with yeast phenols than the type of hop. Phenols to me stand in for bitterness on beers like hefeweizen and trapppist style beers.)

For Belgian strains and phenol producing strains that do great things with hops: a few of my personal favorites are Lagunitas Little Sumpin' Wild, De Ranke XX Bitter, New Glarus Crack'd Wheat, and Captain Lawrence Xtra Gold, one of the beers you guys did on CYBI and Jamil praised so highly. Certainly an intense bitterness can clash with the yeast-driven phenols, but can't this be pulled off well by balancing all the flavor aspects of bitterness, hop aroma, and yeast flavors and aroma? Can't the same thing be said for Black IPA's/CDA's? I have had some great examples here in Portland, such as CDA's from Hopworks, Deschutes, Widmer, and many others. They didn't become the beer trend of the year because they taste bad!!! I just brewed a dry stout with Cascade and Chinook hops that I think tastes great and could easily be called a "Black APA", but it tastes great whatever it is. Every beer that works well is a balancing act. I refuse to believe that you can't make a good hoppy belgian ale or hoppy black IPA, or that it is somehow intrisically impossible to make these flavors work together. But Tasty, I commend you for trying to brew a style that you aren't really a fan of to see if you can get a beer that you really like to drink.

I think it's fine for someone to say that a style of beer does not do much for them. I'm not a usually a huge fan of Scottish wee heavys, American "red" ales, or Irish red ales. I can drink them but they just don't do a lot for me usually. But, I think we have to be careful not to write off some legitimate beer "styles" or call them uncreative. With all the great stuff going on in homebrewing and pro brewing these days, I would like to see us all get to a point where we are brewing what we like, both to-style beers and freestyle beers, and drinking what we like, not based on how creative it is but how much we enjoy it.
EDIT: As to the original question that got this debate started, the only way you can't go wrong is to brew both!

[thatguy314]

Similarly I think one could similarly do a good black IPA by using more english style earthy / floral hops. I tend to prefer these hops more in roasty beers to begin with. EKG, Fuggle, Nugget, maybe northern brewer? Janet's brown blends the northern brewer and the roasted malt very well IMO. So do many other beers. They don't have to clash if you choose the right hops.

I agree. Citrus hops don't work well with the roast of Black IPA nor the phenolics of a Belgian yeast. And that's really my problem with both these styles. Is that really as creative as we can be? Adding Carafa Special or Belgian yeast and using the same hops you normally use in the house IPA and calling that a new style? Do homebrewers have to all the fucking work! Just kidding there.

I brewed a Black IPA on Sunday with Northern Brewer hops. If I don't like that one, then I'm giving up completely.

BTW, that Bells 10000 is like 9.5% or more. That's way bigger than an IPA. Regular or fucked up with Carafa.

Tasty

Yeah, I thought I said it was more like a DIPA....

Have you played with Nugget at all? I haven't played with it much. It's got some earthy character like NB, but I get kind of a sweet, floral, almost cotton-candy like aroma. I think it might be an interesting hop to play with for this style.

Did you just cinnamar your BIPA or did you dose it up with roast malt?

[TastyMcD]

Did you just cinnamar your BIPA or did you dose it up with roast malt?

No Sinamar, just an IPA malt bill plus, like the creative geniuses in Cascadia, Carafa Special to make it black. The Pale Chocolate moves this beer closer to an American Brown Ale.

1.066 OG 64.0 IBU
80.6% Pale Malt(2-row)
06.5% Crystal 60
03.2% Munich Malt
03.2% Pale Chocolate
03.2% Carafa Special II
03.2% Carpils
39.7 IBU Magnum 60 min.
10.7 IBU Northern Brewer 15 min.
05.2 IBU Cascade Flameout-30 minute whirlpool rest
08.4 IBU Centennial Flameout-30 minute whirlpool rest
152F 45 minutes, WLP001

MoreBeer has asked my club (DOZE) to design a recipe for their next catalog in honor of our winning the 2010 AHA National Homebrew Club of The Year. The club decided on a Black IPA. We've been tasting 12-14 homebrews at each of the last two meetings and have firmed up the malt bill. We didn't like the roast from the Carafa Special so we replaced half of it with Pale Chocolate and no longer call it a Black IPA. Next meeting we'll be tasting 15 or so homebrews with the same malt bill but with the only hop restriction being Magnum at 60 minutes. I expect lots of Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra beers like the commercial examples. I have a few Northern Brewer followers. Did I say we have an awesome club.

Tasty

[thatguy314]

Did you just cinnamar your BIPA or did you dose it up with roast malt?

No Sinamar, just an IPA malt bill plus, like the creative geniuses in Cascadia, Carafa Special to make it black. The Pale Chocolate moves this beer closer to an American Brown Ale.

1.066 OG 64.0 IBU
80.6% Pale Malt(2-row)
06.5% Crystal 60
03.2% Munich Malt
03.2% Pale Chocolate
03.2% Carafa Special II
03.2% Carpils
39.7 IBU Magnum 60 min.
10.7 IBU Northern Brewer 15 min.
05.2 IBU Cascade Flameout-30 minute whirlpool rest
08.4 IBU Centennial Flameout-30 minute whirlpool rest
152F 45 minutes, WLP001

MoreBeer has asked my club (DOZE) to design a recipe for their next catalog in honor of our winning the 2010 AHA National Homebrew Club of The Year. The club decided on a Black IPA. We've been tasting 12-14 homebrews at each of the last two meetings and have firmed up the malt bill. We didn't like the roast from the Carafa Special so we replaced half of it with Pale Chocolate and no longer call it a Black IPA. Next meeting we'll be tasting 15 or so homebrews with the same malt bill but with the only hop restriction being Magnum at 60 minutes. I expect lots of Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra beers like the commercial examples. I have a few Northern Brewer followers. Did I say we have an awesome club.

Tasty

I wish I could get my club on board for stuff like that. We had 20 people volunteer to do some experiments, taking a single recipe and doing variations with yeast. I did 20 because I knew someone would drop out and we would get redundancy. We have 100 people in the club, 20 volunteers, and got 5 people who actually did it, 2 of whom were other club officers. I know we've got some interested people and good brewers in the club, but sometimes I wish people would really try to participate in these things.

[mediumsk]

*yawn*

I can't wait for this BIPA/CDA thing to blow over.


I've had alot of bad, some good but still no great examples, all have spit off a metallic flavor that keeps me from ordering that second pint.

[mb2696]

Did you just cinnamar your BIPA or did you dose it up with roast malt?

No Sinamar, just an IPA malt bill plus, like the creative geniuses in Cascadia, Carafa Special to make it black. The Pale Chocolate moves this beer closer to an American Brown Ale.

1.066 OG 64.0 IBU
80.6% Pale Malt(2-row)
06.5% Crystal 60
03.2% Munich Malt
03.2% Pale Chocolate
03.2% Carafa Special II
03.2% Carpils
39.7 IBU Magnum 60 min.
10.7 IBU Northern Brewer 15 min.
05.2 IBU Cascade Flameout-30 minute whirlpool rest
08.4 IBU Centennial Flameout-30 minute whirlpool rest
152F 45 minutes, WLP001

MoreBeer has asked my club (DOZE) to design a recipe for their next catalog in honor of our winning the 2010 AHA National Homebrew Club of The Year. The club decided on a Black IPA. We've been tasting 12-14 homebrews at each of the last two meetings and have firmed up the malt bill. We didn't like the roast from the Carafa Special so we replaced half of it with Pale Chocolate and no longer call it a Black IPA. Next meeting we'll be tasting 15 or so homebrews with the same malt bill but with the only hop restriction being Magnum at 60 minutes. I expect lots of Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra beers like the commercial examples. I have a few Northern Brewer followers. Did I say we have an awesome club.

Tasty

Tasty-

What utilization are you assuming for your WP rest? I do a 30min hot WP as well, and would like to try to factor in some IBU.

Also, do you adjust your other additions? For example, the 15min addition is hot for ~45mins.

[thatguy314]

What's the advantage of whirlpooling these hops hot for an extended period, versus a rapid chill? I know you'll get some extra bitterness, but does it give you a different flavor character?

[Dirk McLargeHuge]

Haysuess de Crisco! That's one hell of a malt bill. What its it, once grain of each malt?

I'll just drink Janet's Brown.