Are cooling fermenting tanks absolutely necessary?

[BDawg]

Andy-
Welcome-

I do not want to throw a damper on your enthusiasm, but I would highly recommend some experience brewing at a homebrew scale first, then thinking about going commercial once you have a hundred or so homebrew batches under your belt.

A 1/2 barrel (15 gallon) system like the Sabco (which is a perfectly fine homebrew or pilot system) is capable of 10 gallon batches at a time, not 15. IMHO, there is no chance that this will be enough beer to sustain a full time business without other outside income. If you have that alternate income stream, then that is great, but you WILL be brewing nonstop on a 10 gal system if you expect to make enough to make money.

Fermentation temperature control is one of the cornerstones of brewing quality, reproducible beers. Fermentation is an exothermic process. The larger the batch, the more heat that is produced during fermentation. The cell count goes up linearly with volume, and as we know from geometry class, volume goes up proportionally to the Radius ^ 3, while surface area is proportional to the Radius ^ 2. Essentially, this means that the bigger the batch, the more yeast there is to create heat, but at the same time, the surface area through which it will dissipate does not increase at a fast enough rate to keep up. Hence, artificial refrigeration is required to combat excessive heat which will produce excessive ester levels, fusel alcohols, and increased phenolic compounds (all off flavors when in excess).
Home brewers, brewing small 5 or 10 gallon batches CAN get away without temperature control, but even then, they recognize the need for properly controlling temperatures and they go to long lengths to achieve it (ie, fermentation chambers, glycol jacketing, ice baths, wet t-shirts, etc). On any scale larger than this, and in particular for commercial quality brewing, temperature control is a must.

So, in short, yes, you will need temperature control in order to cool the volumes necessary to support a full-time business brewery.

(Please take this next advice for the constructive criticism that is intended.)
Many commercial breweries were started by experienced homebrewers that had a business plan, several competition award winning beers, and thousands of gallons of homebrew under their belt. And many of those breweries/brewpubs failed.
Opening a brewery is a lot more involved than "making beer".
By analogy, many experienced Chefs open restaurants that fail. My point is that you should be very well informed on all aspects of brewery operations and to me, based on the nature of your question, frankly, it seems that you probably have a lot more homework and especially hands on brewing to do before you will be in the position to start acquiring equipment, etc. for a business.

I truly hope this helps. Like I said, it is not meant as a slight, nor as a detriment to you opening a small brewery. Rather, its to try to get you to do a lot more hands on brewing and then you will be in a better position to make proper business decisions. In all actuality, it takes a good amount of practice before you can repeatedly and at will brew commercial quality beers. You can't just expect to buy a pilot system and start selling beer with no other experience or practice.

Best Regards-

[Ozwald]

First off, assuming this isn't a troll post even though it smells like one (or that just might be Spidey hanging out in the shadows - wash those whitey's, will ya!?!?)

I do not want to throw a damper on your enthusiasm, but I would highly recommend some experience brewing at a homebrew scale first, then thinking about going commercial once you have a hundred or so homebrew batches under your belt.

Even then, I think you're being rather generous. Several hundred batches is more realistic, with the majority of those batches being either award winning or of a similar caliber.

A 1/2 barrel (15 gallon) system like the Sabco (which is a perfectly fine homebrew or pilot system) is capable of 10 gallon batches at a time, not 15. IMHO, there is no chance that this will be enough beer to sustain a full time business without other outside income. If you have that alternate income stream, then that is great, but you WILL be brewing nonstop on a 10 gal system if you expect to make enough to make money.

I don't think that's an opinion. Also brewing nonstop on a 10g system & making money? Maybe if the laws of physics change & we suddenly get weeks with 12, 60 hour days... and even then breaking even will still be tough. To quote a somewhat recently opened (& semi-successful) brewery owner, "If you try to start with less than a 7bbl system, you're an idiot."

My point is that you should be very well informed on all aspects of brewery operations and to me, based on the nature of your question, frankly, it seems that you probably have a lot more homework and especially hands on brewing to do before you will be in the position to start acquiring equipment, etc. for a business.

I agree 1000%. Even if you believe you're in an untapped market (this is coming from someone living out in the middle of nowhere, Montana, where we need more good breweries (& better brewery laws, but that's a whole different point)), if you're just looking to "offset overall business expenses & supplement dwindling revenue streams from other business" you're barking up the wrong tree. Brewing beer is a terrible way to make a living, or a profit even. Brewing beer, professionally, is about the passion. There's literally thousands of qualified brewers out there who'd gladly work their asses off 130 hours a week just to break even & not get paid a cent for their time. My point is, unless you have a vault that would put Scrooge McDuck to shame or some really dumb investors at your beckoning to open a several hundred barrel production facility, brewing is an extremely poor choice just to make money. To clarify, a barrel (bbl) is a measure of volume (31 gallons), not the physical item.

If you're still convinced you can make a living or offset other expenses or whatever with brewing, here's what you do (short version with many steps skipped):

Brew a dozen extract batches or as many as it takes to get a decent beer that you enjoy to drink.
Buy your 10g Sabco (or any other AG system) & brew a dozen more to produce the same quality you were producing when you were doing the extract batches.
Enter homebrew comps until you can score above 40 on every entry.
Buy a 7+bbl system & see if you can make a profit.

Yes, this will likely take a decade, if not 2 & that's assuming you're really, really good. If you're looking for a faster turn around that won't cost hundreds of thousands just to start up, try printing t-shirts or repairing lawn mowers or starting an internet beer radio show. I've heard those all make a lot of money. Even if they don't, it's better profit than opening a brewery.

[BDawg]

There are 3 guys in my homebrew club who are weeks away from opening their own brewery.

All 3 are BJCP judges.
All 3 have won numerous awards in homebrew competitions.
Between the 3 of them they have about 27 years of homebrewing experience and hundreds of batches. They have secured a couple of million dollars in financing and are spending every penny of it. 2 out of the 3 still have their software engineering jobs and the 3rd has just retired.

Despite all their experience and knowledge, they do not feel qualified to brew on the commercial scale so they are in the midst of interviewing candidates to hire an experienced head brewer.

They are hoping and praying with all that that they will hopefully turn a profit in a couple of years.

Bottom line, these guys are doing it right.

[siwelwerd]

Of course, I am not one of those naive stupid people who plan to become brewing kings...

The fact that you call it that tells me that you're not ready.

Seriously though, hire someone who knows what they're doing. The fact that you are considering a 10-15 gallon system to start indicates that you have no idea what the economics involved are. Seeking professional help is your most likely route to success.

[andyest]

Andy-
Welcome-

I do not want to throw a damper on your enthusiasm, but I would highly recommend some experience brewing at a homebrew scale first, then thinking about going commercial once you have a hundred or so homebrew batches under your belt.

A 1/2 barrel (15 gallon) system like the Sabco (which is a perfectly fine homebrew or pilot system) is capable of 10 gallon batches at a time, not 15. IMHO, there is no chance that this will be enough beer to sustain a full time business without other outside income. If you have that alternate income stream, then that is great, but you WILL be brewing nonstop on a 10 gal system if you expect to make enough to make money.

Fermentation temperature control is one of the cornerstones of brewing quality, reproducible beers. Fermentation is an exothermic process. The larger the batch, the more heat that is produced during fermentation. The cell count goes up linearly with volume, and as we know from geometry class, volume goes up proportionally to the Radius ^ 3, while surface area is proportional to the Radius ^ 2. Essentially, this means that the bigger the batch, the more yeast there is to create heat, but at the same time, the surface area through which it will dissipate does not increase at a fast enough rate to keep up. Hence, artificial refrigeration is required to combat excessive heat which will produce excessive ester levels, fusel alcohols, and increased phenolic compounds (all off flavors when in excess).
Home brewers, brewing small 5 or 10 gallon batches CAN get away without temperature control, but even then, they recognize the need for properly controlling temperatures and they go to long lengths to achieve it (ie, fermentation chambers, glycol jacketing, ice baths, wet t-shirts, etc). On any scale larger than this, and in particular for commercial quality brewing, temperature control is a must.

So, in short, yes, you will need temperature control in order to cool the volumes necessary to support a full-time business brewery.

(Please take this next advice for the constructive criticism that is intended.)
Many commercial breweries were started by experienced homebrewers that had a business plan, several competition award winning beers, and thousands of gallons of homebrew under their belt. And many of those breweries/brewpubs failed.
Opening a brewery is a lot more involved than "making beer".
By analogy, many experienced Chefs open restaurants that fail. My point is that you should be very well informed on all aspects of brewery operations and to me, based on the nature of your question, frankly, it seems that you probably have a lot more homework and especially hands on brewing to do before you will be in the position to start acquiring equipment, etc. for a business.

I truly hope this helps. Like I said, it is not meant as a slight, nor as a detriment to you opening a small brewery. Rather, its to try to get you to do a lot more hands on brewing and then you will be in a better position to make proper business decisions. In all actuality, it takes a good amount of practice before you can repeatedly and at will brew commercial quality beers. You can't just expect to buy a pilot system and start selling beer with no other experience or practice.

Best Regards-

Hey Bdawg and other folks!

First of all, thanks for all the valuable input and opinions. I appreciate all criticism and skepticism as well. Believe me, in my main business I am just as skeptical and critical when it comes to people looking at issues superficially.

May be I did not make it clear enough, but I do not expect to turn out profits in the short term, or even longer term. And I do have passion for brewing and strong interest in it. Plus, like I said, we have very suitable piece of real estate, which makes me consider this enterprise. Otherwise, I would not even dare to deal with it.

Bdawg -your insight is very valuable and helpful. Thanks again!

I understand that small brewing system like Sabco is not profitable for serious brewing operation. But I figured this would be the best solution to learn the ropes. As other people have mentioned, homebrewing and commercial brewing are totally different and even experienced homebrewers have problems entering commercial world. So, I figured starting with small system and experimenting would be the quickest way to enter the field in our situation.

Of course, 10 gallon is still way too small. Too bad Sabco does not make something similar around 1 bbl capacity. This size seems ideal to me.

I would really appreciate if you help me out with last thing, which I already mentioned in the original post:

What size tanks and how many would you start with if you were in my situation? What is the best fermentation tank cooling method for this small scale operation and which supplier provides best prices and service in this category? (please provide some general hints for my own further research).

Thanks in advance!

[codewritinfool]

Whoa. The board freaked out or something. Here is the original post I was able to recover:


Hey beer friends!

Here is our story: I am currently in the process of setting up microbrewery. We are blessed to have a paid off business property that has decent location in fairly untapped market (believe it or not) that can be fairly easily accommodated to fit brewing operation. Of course, I am not one of those naive stupid people who plan to become brewing kings...we are just doing it because we need to offset overall business expenses and supplement dwindling revenue streams from other business. So, this is a long term project for us and I am sure we will see plenty of challenges.

I think we will start with one of the small pilot systems that are widely available. For example, Sabcos Brew Magic Pilot System. The only thing that makes me anxious is that this system uses only 15 gallon tanks (kettle,HLT,mash). So, does this mean that if our project takes off and we get some normal demand, we will be brewing these small 15 gallon batches 24/7 or will need to get a bigger system?

Also, if we get some system in this 15-40 gallon batch range, what kind of fermentation tank size do we need to use based on your logic? I guess fermentation tanks must match pretty well with the size of the brewing capacity? How many tanks would you start with?

And final question: I am reading that fermentation tanks need to be cooled using various methods for proper fermentation. At the same time I see people using simple non-cooled stainless and even basic plastic fermentation tanks. So, do you think we can get away with not having to install any complicated cooling systems for our fermentation tanks? Or does it depend on beer type (some beers need cooling and other don't)? It basically comes down to our fairly limited budget, we want to save money if we can. We plan to install the whole operation in the heated basement of the building, which is pretty well insulated. However, it can get pretty warm on hot summer days and cooler in winter months. Typical Midwest weather, you know;)

I really appreciate your help! I hope I can be as helpful to all of you as well in the near future!

[Whitebeard_Brewer]

Andy-
Welcome-

Hey Bdawg and other folks!

First of all, thanks for all the valuable input and opinions. I appreciate all criticism and skepticism as well. Believe me, in my main business I am just as skeptical and critical when it comes to people looking at issues superficially.

May be I did not make it clear enough, but I do not expect to turn out profits in the short term, or even longer term. And I do have passion for brewing and strong interest in it. Plus, like I said, we have very suitable piece of real estate, which makes me consider this enterprise. Otherwise, I would not even dare to deal with it.

Bdawg -your insight is very valuable and helpful. Thanks again!

I understand that small brewing system like Sabco is not profitable for serious brewing operation. But I figured this would be the best solution to learn the ropes. As other people have mentioned, homebrewing and commercial brewing are totally different and even experienced homebrewers have problems entering commercial world. So, I figured starting with small system and experimenting would be the quickest way to enter the field in our situation.

Of course, 10 gallon is still way too small. Too bad Sabco does not make something similar around 1 bbl capacity. This size seems ideal to me.

I would really appreciate if you help me out with last thing, which I already mentioned in the original post:

What size tanks and how many would you start with if you were in my situation? What is the best fermentation tank cooling method for this small scale operation and which supplier provides best prices and service in this category? (please provide some general hints for my own further research).

Thanks in advance!

Contact these guys....ask them how much a 7bbl system will run you......that's where I would start, SABCO is great for a homebrew level, or for running test batches in a brewery, but I wouldn't recommend one for a production brewery....unless you NEVER want to sleep again!!! If you haven't listened to them yet, I would go into the archives, and listen to every Jamil show he did on starting a brewery....TONS of great info in there....you may change your mind quickly.

Everything BDawg and others have mentioned above is spot on.....if you have never brewed before, opening a brewery is NOT how you want to learn.....unless you just like throwing money away....in that case, I can give you my bank acct. number, and you can just make monthly deposits in there, at least I will buy some great craft beers with it!!!

Also, might try asking this same question over on Pro Brewer Forum....most of them have been there, done that, and I'm sure will give you close to the same exact responses.

Good Luck

WBB

[Ozwald]

If you're really passionate about brewing, buy the Sabco & learn how to brew... at home. Normally I'd say it's your money to waste by going pro, but the last thing we need out there is another brewery that doesn't have the slightest clue what they're doing. This isn't something you can learn overnight, or even over a year. If you're going to hire someone to brew on your system, they'll have answers to the simple questions like you posted. +1 to the ProBrewer Forums. You might even find the brewer you want to hire.

& no, it's not an accident that no one has directly answered your question.

OUT!