Beer Forum

On these shows they talk about doing a 30 minute wirlpool after flame out to help get flavor from the 0 minute hop additions. Wouldn't this create DMS in the beer? On other pod casts they always talk about one of the most important things is to cool the beer quickly after flameout in order to prevent DMS. I just want to confirm that for these clones I am understanding correct, we are actually supposed to let the wort sit warm after boil.

At least for the Union Jack IPA recipe it is a 90 minute boil. I believe- 100 minutes drives off all DMS precursors when using pilsner malt which is the worst offender. This recipe uses 2 row, which shouldn't be as bad. So, I'm thinking- 90 minutes drives off most or all of the DMS precursors.

It is supposed to sit warm after the boil.

stadelman wrote:I'm confused about the water for the Union Jack clone.

I do use Palmer's RA Spreadsheet and have a general understanding of water chemistry, but the "Add gypsum and CaCl to 100ppm" guidance doesn't seem like enough information to me.

For my system, I'm going to need about 5.8 gallons of mash water and 3.75 gallons of sparge water.

Can you offer any guidance on how to treat this amount of RO water for this recipe?

Thanks for your help

I presume the emphasis is to use some Calcium source to obtain 100ppm. Since most of us simply use tap water, hopefully filtered, you are looking at finding out what your water already has in Calcium prior adding chalk or gypsum to obtain 100ppm.

I'm confused about the water for the Union Jack clone.

I do use Palmer's RA Spreadsheet and have a general understanding of water chemistry, but the "Add gypsum and CaCl to 100ppm" guidance doesn't seem like enough information to me.

For my system, I'm going to need about 5.8 gallons of mash water and 3.75 gallons of sparge water.

Can you offer any guidance on how to treat this amount of RO water for this recipe?

Me too !!
Do they mean 100ppm of Calcium and 100ppm of Gypsum added to the RO water ?
Or "some combination" of Calcium and Gypsum that gets you to 100ppm of TOTAL SALTS !??!

driver8rws wrote:

I'm confused about the water for the Union Jack clone.

I do use Palmer's RA Spreadsheet and have a general understanding of water chemistry, but the "Add gypsum and CaCl to 100ppm" guidance doesn't seem like enough information to me.

For my system, I'm going to need about 5.8 gallons of mash water and 3.75 gallons of sparge water.

Can you offer any guidance on how to treat this amount of RO water for this recipe?

Me too !!
Do they mean 100ppm of Calcium and 100ppm of Gypsum added to the RO water ?
Or "some combination" of Calcium and Gypsum that gets you to 100ppm of TOTAL SALTS !??!

This:

bovine0001 wrote:I presume the emphasis is to use some Calcium source to obtain 100ppm. Since most of us simply use tap water, hopefully filtered, you are looking at finding out what your water already has in Calcium prior adding chalk or gypsum to obtain 100ppm.

The goal is 100 ppm Ca. Since the 2 different methods of adding Ca don't add just Ca; you may have to use a combination of the 2 to stay within range on other elements. The starting water could vary immensely, so I'm assuming that would be the reason behind such a broad answer.

As to the RO question, I'm just speaking from memory & experience so I don't have an exact answer for you. Treat your RO water just like any other water. You know where you're starting from, so RTFP (read the f'n Palmer! - that show still cracks me up). Everything you need is in the mashing sub-chapter dealing with water & salts. There's even one of his infamous nomagraphs if you can't follow the text.

Ozwald wrote:The goal is 100 ppm Ca. Since the 2 different methods of adding Ca don't add just Ca; you may have to use a combination of the 2 to stay within range on other elements. The starting water could vary immensely, so I'm assuming that would be the reason behind such a broad answer.

Ok, I can buy what you are saying with "the goal is 100ppm Ca" and that you would use SOME Gypsum and SOME CalciumChloride to get there.
Which of course as a "side effect" would also add some Sulfate and some Chloride.
BUT I totally DO NOT get what you are saying with "the starting water could vary immensely"...
NO it wouldn't... They said to start with RO water !! i.e. ZERO EVERYTHING...

Right ??

Sooooo.... THEN I would think you start looking at what you want your Sulfate : Chloride ratio to be, and figure out which salts can get you to 100ppm Ca AND get the desired Sulfate : Chloride ratio.
Maybe "balanced" or "little bitter" for the DBA ?? (i.e. 1:1 to 1.5:1 range)
And maybe "little bitter" or "more bitter" for the Union Jack ?? (i.e. 1.5:1 to 2:1 range)

Where in the hell is Palmer when you need him ??

-Randy

Sorry to ask another question after just posting the last one, but it is related...

In the Matt Brynildson interview show he says they they target a MASH pH of 4.5 !?!?

Isn't that REALLY low !?!

I always shoot for ~5.1-5.5 range according to Palmer, JZ, Gordon Strong, etc...

driver8rws wrote:

Ozwald wrote:The goal is 100 ppm Ca. Since the 2 different methods of adding Ca don't add just Ca; you may have to use a combination of the 2 to stay within range on other elements. The starting water could vary immensely, so I'm assuming that would be the reason behind such a broad answer.

Ok, I can buy what you are saying with "the goal is 100ppm Ca" and that you would use SOME Gypsum and SOME CalciumChloride to get there.
Which of course as a "side effect" would also add some Sulfate and some Chloride.
BUT I totally DO NOT get what you are saying with "the starting water could vary immensely"...
NO it wouldn't... They said to start with RO water !! i.e. ZERO EVERYTHING...

The half of the post you separated was speaking generally, the part you cut out was speaking to the RO water. When they're giving water treatments on air, they're talking to the guy with rocky mountain spring water, florida swamp water, cascade run-off & possibly some Auzzies if there's actually water over there somewhere. So yes, they can't give exact measurements since the starting water could be pretty much any local water. Again, I'm speaking generally here cause I don't have that particular show right in front of me, just trying to help shine some light on the question. Most all specific technical information from the show, especially from Palmer & Whitey, is given pretty loosely cause these very handsome men know there's always going to be a ton of variables from brewer to brewer, environment to environment & system to system. Read the 2nd part of the quoted post that clarifies what I'm saying, in the context of RO water being one of the variations on starting water talked about in the 1st part.