Clock like fermentation?

[fermentalist]

Hi folks, new to the forum and wanting to allay some first batch worries.

Been a long time since I've brewed--maybe 15 years ago, change of venue and my long lost nephew now being nearby, occasioned a recent visit to the local home brew store to get some supplies for a batch of ale.

Anyhow, we worked out a compromise between his revered standard/target beer of McKewans Scotch Ale and what we might reasonably get in a months time given the limited selection of everything there, and his kitchen which is pretty much microwave oriented.

The Wyeast smack-pak 1056 Californian ale yeast we bought I had used before or at least some variant back in the days of bottle conditioned Sierra Nevada--just cold filtered, immersed the filter pad in sterile H20, streaked on agar, and built monoclonal cultures the usual way. This Wyeast aint such a bad idea

But maybe its my imagination, or the fact I was all grain brewer, but this fermentation seems kind of tepid, relatively speaking.

Maybe 15 hrs to catch (dense pockets among thin foam islands). BTW I used a starter of 250cc (1.020 malt with a 1/4 tsp of fleichmanns yeast for nutrients added before boiling) which was innoculated from the starter night before pitching and showing blip every 15 seconds or so in 3 piece air lock at the time of pitching.

Anyhow the lack of drama is just made me curious--threw a 1.5" dense head which has been there for 2 days, while it continues to blip-blip-blip like a watch.

So being an absolute neurotic (being deprived of any homebrew with which to relax), I got to wondering will this finish before XMAS?

So in the spirit of homebrewing wonderment, I asked just how many airlock blips in a batch?

Assuming the average blip in a 3 way lock to be 1 ml, and that the 1056 will attenuate the 52 og (80 schilling Scotch export) to 13 fg, I get about 40gm/kg of CO2 given off. In this 5.2 gal batch, thats about 20L or 800 gm. Dividing by the molecular weight of CO2, I get 18.2 moles, which times 22.4L/mole suggests a lot of gas: 407 L (shh, don't tell Al Gore). Thats 407000 blips.

That seemed like an awful lot until I counted the seconds in a day: 86,400.
So a second hand blip rate and I am done in 5 days.

So I think I'm ok, but I did get curous whether anyone has actually tried to measure using displacement or some soda lime to see whether any of this has any meaning.

Cheers, or almost anyway...
John

[noremorse1]

Counting the bubbles in the airlock is an unreliable method for monitoring of fermentation. You already seem like a well informed and equally methodical homebrewer; both very important qualities for the hobby/obsession. With that yeast, and at the right temperature, primary fermentation will most likely be finished in 4-5 days. The brew will be safe to bottle or keg in 2 weeks. It is also a very tolerant and forgiving yeast strain in my experience.

Two important questions.
What temperature was the wort when you pitched the yeast? What temperature has it been at since? At warmer temperatures it will ferment much faster. Of course, as a result, there will also be much more activity in the airlock. However, if you get too warm, the quality of the beer will be affected.

I suppose, if you were to duplicate the conditions for two separate but similar batches, the level of co2 let off would be about the same. I have to imagine that big breweries like AB and MillerCoors have this type of information with their staple brews.

[fermentalist]

NM1,

I want to ask you (or anyone else) about that: I read the Wyeast FAQ page 8 hours post pitching when I still had to shake vigorously to produce any proof of fermentation and everyone was waiting for this "big" show I had promised, and saw the Wyeast site downplay bubble activity.

Does this apply to a stoppered carboy only? I guess what I'm thinking is if there is any kind of leak pathway, sure the gas will prefer that route vs having to bump gravity. I just don't know, I have done maybe 100+ batches and it always seemed pretty reliable as a crude gauge of activity. I do wet the stopper and push hard to get the best seal I can, but I can see where its anything but solid and might get nudged upward under pressure. Some kind of clamp and a bit of petroleum jelly could likely improve things I reckon.

But you hit on an even more important point I think. After bathtub chilling, the beer sat overnite on a tile floor--house thermostat drops to 53F night, so my guess is the beer was nearly as cold at pitching. Meanwhile the starter was on a counter and might have been buffered from the temp drop
by fermentation. So yea, I'm thinking 6 hrs post pitching its too cool, and get it off the floor. I need one of those fish tank crtsyal stick on thermometers for future use, but what got my curiosity up about your response--OK the yeast is pitched into too cool a fermentor. There is thermal shock perhaps, but what struck me on Wyeast and other sites is the suggestion that the entire future of the fermentation may be influenced by this one encounter, even if rectified soon.

I believe I am OK for now, but this near mishap and the many others in future I always try to learn from. In some ways this seems like a perfect fermentation without surge of activity and almost complete die off within one to three days, but more like lager slow but sure... The outgassing thru airlock is very clean at this oint so I am pretty sure we will get a good beer, if not McKewans (6.6# M&F 50/50 dark/light, 1# each 40 and 90 L crystal, 1 0z roasted, and the MF dark malt extract further caramelized by separate 1 hr boil/condensation.)

BTW since moving to BR, ave temp is 67+/-4 F.

[noremorse1]

NM1,

Does this apply to a stoppered carboy only? I guess what I'm thinking is if there is any kind of leak pathway, sure the gas will prefer that route vs having to bump gravity.

The co2 will escape through the path of least resistance. With the two popular stopper/airlock setups you sometimes see them get clogged up. When this happens it often results in an explosion. Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMg03TKoiw8

Side note. The guy in this video makes huge mistakes in his process. I am just showing the result. Because of this many brewers now use a large blowoff tube and jam it in their carboy and insert the other end into a small vessel with sanitized water.

Like you, I also have a Scottish 80 fermenting. It is not a very active fermentation as opposed to a high gravity Belgian like the one in this video.

But you hit on an even more important point I think. After bathtub chilling, the beer sat overnite on a tile floor--house thermostat drops to 53F night, so my guess is the beer was nearly as cold at pitching. Meanwhile the starter was on a counter and might have been buffered from the temp drop
by fermentation. So yea, I'm thinking 6 hrs post pitching its too cool, and get it off the floor. I need one of those fish tank crtsyal stick on thermometers for future use, but what got my curiosity up about your response--OK the yeast is pitched into too cool a fermentor. There is thermal shock perhaps, but what struck me on Wyeast and other sites is the suggestion that the entire future of the fermentation may be influenced by this one encounter, even if rectified soon.

That is a very cold fermentation for that yeast strain. 53f is near lagering temperature. At that temperature you are going to have a pretty boring and slow fermentation. I would recommend pitching at about 62f and maintaining between that and about 65 with this brew.

Also, yes... yeast are suckers for first impressions. When you pitch your yeast, the first thing they do is take note of the wort they are about to ferment. If anything is changed during the process, they will not ferment optimally and will often produce off flavors (diacetyl, esters).

BTW since moving to BR, ave temp is 67+/-4 F.

This will produce a more active fermentation. I would give it a few extra days in the carboy/bucket and let the yeast condition your brew a bit.

All said, I am sure it will turn out great. As you stated, it will be a very smooth and clean beer. Relax, drink a homebrew!

BTW... I am far from an expert. Listen to what some of the other more experienced guys have to say like Bdawg and Bugeater. I am sure they will chime in.

[fermentalist]

Next time--I'll be thinking about cold floors for sure! Certainly I know better than to try to coax this yeast along in the low 50's.

Once done, we'll have to compare notes on the export 80's--ours is a little browner than intended, and god knows what cooking barely thinned dark LME for an additional hour will do--hoping we get some big caramel/malt tones. I'm doubting any will last long enuf to get the benefit of much cold conditioning. Anyhow, that "lesson" is done, next up all grain pale ale.

I saw the thread on the bag mashing--psyched about the simplicity and we'll likely head in that direction after a few AG's. First, tho, he needs to learn the "hard" way using the usual suspects for equipment. He does have a huge Igloo cooler that is begging to be used with whole bunch of grain for a wee heavy, taking the lighter runoff for a small brew.

Start of day 4 post pitch, and its still clocking at a blip/second.

[Bugeater]

I agree that 57° is a bit low for that yeast, I have best luck at about 64°. The thing that caught my eye though was that you only used a 250 ml starter. That is not enough to do more that wake up the yeast, only slightly better than just smacking the package and letting it swell. You should be doing at least a full liter starter. I normally use a 1.5 - 2.0 liter starter with that yeast for beers in the 1.050 - 1.065. This will produce quicker starts and produce fewer esters.

I suggest you checkout www.mrmalty.com for some great info on doing starters.

Congrats on getting back into brewing. I'm sure this beer will turn out fine.

Wayne

[fermentalist]

Thanks for the info Wayne--what is striking in the fifteen years I been gone is (bviously the WWW for one--love these forums, and can't imagine life w/o them) the much greater wealth of technical info re everything but in particular, yeast among homebrewers.

BTW, it was actually a wine bottle nearly full (which while not a quart or two, is twice the 250ml I mentioned). Hey we are improvising here and thats what we had! Next time we brew I'll grab several canning jars full of wort, and have those available for starters. (I have some great airfilters I can use to inject air in--for a while was growing mushroom cultures in solution--yea one can get fungal balls, but no fruiting underwater obviously, but great way to propogate fast to grains, sawdust, rice cakes or what have you).

Want to get two more batches from this yeast--likely I'll collect the dregs from the primary (no second carboy yet), separate that from the trub, and grow out enough for a pumpkin ale (the big ole Jack out back is starting to look a little furry (aspergillosis sp?), and what else, a californian style pale ale.

[Mylo]

Hmmm, growing mushrooms, eh? That sounds like an enriching hobby!

The other thing that has happened in the last 15 years, is Rock Candy's "How to Brew" - it's the New Testament (no disrespect Charlie P...). Ditch notions of a "secondary" fermenter<cough>brite tank</cough>. You can get one at the BN Store (support our own) - probably signed, no less.

Welcome back to the greatest hobby on the Earth. Oh, and suck it.


Mylo